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PRESENTER- Hello, and welcome to Tete-a-Tete, France 24 flagship interview show. We're in Ankara, and our guest today is the Foreign Minister of the Republic of Türkiye, Hakan Fidan. Thank you very much for welcoming us.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Thank you.

PRESENTER- I want to begin, obviously, with Syria, neighboring Syria. This Friday, a high-level US delegation met with the new leadership in Damascus, the Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, HTS, as it's known, despite the fact that it is classified by the US, by the EU, by Türkiye as a terrorist organization. How significant is this visit?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I think it is very significant. Before this visit, we've seen other European countries and international organizations visiting Damascus and contacting the new administration there. I think it is important.

PRESENTER- You're planning to visit Damascus and meet with the leader of HTS?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Yes, I am. I am planning to go there and to meet with the new administration.

PRESENTER- One of the things they want is to be removed from the terror list. They are on there because of previous associations with both Al Qaeda and ISIS. Türkiye has a list of terrorists. They're on this list. Why not take them out of this list? You can do it on your own. You don't need to wait for the US, the EU or the UN to do so.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I think that's a good point because we put them on the list because of UN listing, because we observe the UN Security Council decisions. So now we are having a unique situation where the legality and practicality are contradicting each other here, because in practice, we've seen the HTS for the last ten years have not involved any terrorist activities. And it was quite well documented by not only us, but also Western intelligence agencies.

PRESENTER- I'm assuming you've had interactions with the HTS, its leader, Ahmed el-Sharaa, as he's known there. Have they been useful to fight actually terrorist groups like DAESH or Al-Qaeda? Have they collaborated with you and with Western officials to show that they're not terrorists anymore, but actually cooperate against terrorist groups?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Yes, indeed, to a great extent. We've had excellent cooperation on sharing intelligence to fight against especially DAESH leadership. They helped us a lot, but because of the sensitivities, we didn't make it public at that time. But over the years they cooperated with us in providing intelligence on DAESH and Al-Qaeda related organizations.

PRESENTER- Even high value targets, as they're known like Al-Baghdadi, or…

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Even high value targets.

PRESENTER- One concrete issue is the refugee issue, over 3 million here in Türkiye. Are they going back? Are you telling them go back to your country?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- We are trying to work hard to create an environment in Syria where the refugees in Türkiye, as well as in other countries can feel that voluntarily, safely, they can go back. We cannot dictate them and we are not going to force them to go back.

PRESENTER- Have they started going back?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- They have started going back. But the initial numbers are not that much high. But we think that in the coming days, we'll see a big increase in the numbers of people who are going back to Syria.

PRESENTER- President-elect of the United States, Donald Trump, said “this was an unfriendly takeover by Türkiye”. What happened? The fall of Assad, adding that “President Erdogan”, whom he admires, “was tough and obtained what he wanted for a long time”. Your reaction?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- I think he was trying to compliment what had happened. But you know, we cannot characterize what happened in Syria as a takeover of Türkiye. On the contrary, if any, if there is any takeover, it is a takeover of the will of the Syrian people.

PRESENTER- What many people have a hard time believing is that all of a sudden, Iran and Russia that had invested so much in supporting Assad, even his crackdown several years ago, suddenly pulled out without firing a shot. There was a deal, wasn't there?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I wouldn't call it a deal. I think if you look at the Russian strategy and Mr. Putin, over the years, Mr. Putin has stayed in power long enough to evolve from a tactical administrator to a good strategic thinker. I think he knows what is important, what is less important, what can be invested on, what is to be continued, what is not. I think in this case, he has made his calculations and decided not to go ahead anymore.

PRESENTER- To abandon Assad?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- I don't know if he has abandoned him. No, it doesn't seem so because Assad is in Moscow now.

PRESENTER- What about Iran? Is it because of what happened to Hezbollah and Lebanon? They were essentially…

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- I think Iran has recalculated all the options again, and then they have taken a very realistic approach.

PRESENTER- Russia still has, for the time being, two military bases in Syria. Vladimir Putin was asked about their future, he said “We'll see, maybe. We'll discuss”. And he said, I quote him. “The overwhelming majority of countries in the region have an interest in those bases remaining as Russian bases remaining in Syria”. Are you among them? Are you in favor of Russian bases remaining in Syria?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, certainly we are not in favor of any bases remaining in Syria. Not only the Russians, but any others. So…

PRESENTER- They should leave?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-Well, I mean, it will be up to Syrian people. It will be up to Syrian people. And if they come to an understanding, it's their decision. So, we'll see. But now, as we see the Russians are now in the process of redeploying their units, and in the end of the process, we don't know how much of them will continue to stay in Syria in the bases.

PRESENTER-Speaking of troops, we just learned that the United States, people thought they had 900 troops in Syria. The Pentagon just revealed that, in fact, there were 2000 U.S. troops in Syria. Were you aware that it was more than double the U.S. presence in Syria? Obviously, you're well informed about that. Did you know that?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- No.In recent weeks, we've noticed the increase of the numbers.

PRESENTER-They say it's to fight ISIS, presumably. Is this what you, why are you smiling?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-No, definition of fighting ISIS has been always used as an excuse. I mean, let's make some definitions right. The fight against ISIS is, there is only one job. It's to keep ISIS prisoners in prison. That's it. And unfortunately, our American friends and some European friends are using a terrorist organization to keep the other terrorists in prison.

PRESENTER-So you're against this uptick in U.S. troops in Syria? You don't think that's the right decision?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-I don't think that is the right decision. I think we have to have an understanding with United States, how to address the concerns of keeping the ISIS prisoners where they are, and how to address eliminating PKK/YPG, and how to address the basic rights and safety and security of the Kurds and Arabs and Turkmens.

PRESENTER- There are rumors of an impending Turkish military offensive against the so-called Syrian Democratic Forces, the “SDF”, that are mainly constituted by the YPG, the People's Protection Units, which Türkiye says is part of the PKK. Is there an offensive about to happen?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-Well, look, you know, YPG is an artificially constructed terrorist organization, comprised of people from Türkiye, Iraq, Syria, and some of them Europe. So, I think this artificial terrorist organization should be disbanded immediately. So, first of all, now there is a new administration in Syria. I think they have to take care of their own this business, because we are talking about territorial unity and sovereignty and integrity of Syria. So that has to be provided.

PRESENTER- So, you're counting on them to address the issue instead of you going in?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-This is one of the ways that we would like to see, but the...

PRESENTER- Thepreferred way?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-The preferred way. I mean, if it doesn't happen we have to protect our own national security.

PRESENTER- Meaning? Meaning military intervention is possible?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-Whatever it takes.

PRESENTER- The head of the “SDF” has proposed a demilitarized zone around the town of Kobane. And he's also indicated that he's willing to find a negotiated solution with Türkiye. Why not?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-Well, they have to have a negotiated solution first with Damascus, because now there is a new administration in Damascus. The YPG/PKK, now they don't have Russia, Iran and regime alliance behind them. You know, these two three actors…

PRESENTER- But they have the U.S.

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN-No, no, no. Let me say this. These three actors, they were providing the foundation for YPG to sit on. The U.S. and some European countries, they were, you know, supporting YPG, who is based on this foundation. Now this foundation is gone. There is a new reality in Damascus now. Now the new reality in Damascus, hopefully, they will address these issues. But at the same time, YPG/PKK, they know what we want. We don't want to see any form of military threat to ourselves, not only the present one, but also the potential one.

PRESENTER- Which brings me to the next question. A key ally of President Erdoğan, Devlet Bahçeli, recently said he's known as an important leader, nationalist and so on that he thought it would be maybe a good idea to have jailed PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan come before the Turkish parliament and announce that PKK was disarming and disbanding. President Erdoğan mentioned that there could be a window of opportunity. Is that now being pursued by Türkiye, trying to find a solution with the PKK here?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, for a long time, Türkiye has been trying to address this issue in many ways through dialogue, through military means, through democracy, through everything, just to make sure that there is no conflict anymore and the rights are provided equally on citizenship basis. So, I think over the years, because of democratic reforms that have been performed by ruling AK Party, our governments, I think we've taken big steps in addressing all the mistakes of the past. Right now, everybody is enjoying in Türkiye their equal rights of being a Turkish citizen. But what Mr. Bahçeli has done is a great service to this country. I mean, being a leader of a nationalistic party and proposing as such, is a great service in political terms. But in state terms, the relevant state organs under the leadership of President Erdoğan, of course, always will take the best steps in the interest of the entire nation, whether for the Kurds, Turkmens, Arabs or anybody else. So, hopefully this new era and term without any bloodshed would give the political parties a space where there is no fight, no terror, no conflict. People can actually conduct their own policies at the parliament, the Turkish Parliament.

PRESENTER- Going back to Syria, Israel troops have entered the buffer zone. They've announced some resettlement of the Golan Heights that it has annexed. How concerned are you by this? There have been criticisms, Israel is saying Türkiye currently controls 15% of Syria, so there's no way we can accept such criticisms from Türkiye. What is your reaction?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, I think the comparison is completely irrelevant and irrational. I think we need to look at the historical context and at other things. So, we are not there to bring the Turkish citizens, to make them settlers, and to grab the land of the Syrian people and to declare the entire world this place will be forever under Türkiye’s control. No, we stated two objectives to prevent further immigration to Türkiye because they didn't feel that they were secure. So Turkish troops are there to make them secure for a long time. Otherwise another 5 million people would have ended up in Türkiye, and some of which would have ended up in Europe. So, this was number one. The second thing is counterterrorism operations. We've never claimed officially, openly, saying look, this is our territory, we are going to bring additional Turkish people to settle them. But what Netanyahu government is doing now is exactly the opposite. They want to make these occupied lands.

PRESENTER- Really? You think they're, because they're saying it's for security reasons. You don't trust them?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- No. I mean, this was the initial moves. But later on, when you heard what Mr. Netanyahu was telling, they are going to double down the number of settlements in Golan Heights, in occupied places. They will bring extra Jewish settlers in those Syrian lands, so to keep them forever under their control and to annex actually to Israel.

PRESENTER- Is a ceasefire in Gaza more realistic now, given what's happened in Lebanon, what's happened in Syria? There have been rumors that we're getting closer but the precedents are telling another story. We've heard those rumors before. How confident are you that there can indeed finally be a ceasefire in Gaza in the near term?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, every interested actor these days that I speak to, including us, we are more optimistic. But I am not sure if this is a wishful thinking or the reality is really providing this picture. Now there is a degree of reality that those two parties, Israelis and Hamas, are coming closer. But how close, are they close enough to really bridge the gap that so they can reach a ceasefire? We'll see very soon.

PRESENTER- Hamas has moved?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Hamas has moved too.

PRESENTER- Are you concerned about a war between Israel and Iran?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Very much.

PRESENTER- Very much?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Very much.

PRESENTER- Because you feel Israel will strike Iran, because Iran is weak right now?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, for whatever reason, there might be a, there is a possibility that it might occur. So, the only thing that I know that the Iranians, they don't want such a war. They would like to avoid any major confrontation. This is, you know, a direct information that I've had from our Iranian friends as a result of my meetings with them.

PRESENTER- The relations between Türkiye and Europe, they haven't been very good to say the least, in recent years. But Ursula von der Leyen, the President of the EU Commission, was just here in Ankara a few days ago. President Erdoğan had several phone calls with European leaders, including with the French President, Emmanuel Macron. Do you think, realistically, that the EU membership is now back on track, or is it too early?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- That's a very good question. Well, in our assessment, Türkiye and Europe in general, Türkiye and France in particular, we need to go back to pre-Sarkozy settings. What I mean by this, because up until Mr. Sarkozy, the two major countries of Europe, Germany and France, their political leadership saw Türkiye's membership of the European Union as a strategic step. But later on, Türkiye's membership has been treated as part of domestic politics and Türkiye was viewed through the identity politics lenses. So now there are two tendencies in Europe. One is, should Europe be a geostrategic thinker, including Türkiye into the club and then create its own center of gravity in its own region, so thus can be a more resisting to the international chaos and geopolitical risks or, you know, stay very much dependent on the other actors for their own security. If Türkiye was becoming a member of the European Union in 2007 or 2008, because that was the golden times, because when Türkiye was given this clear roadmap, the EU reforms were on the path, no other international actors were threatening Türkiye because they knew that how well Türkiye was treated by the European Union. And the merit-based process was on track. But later on, it became a discussion of identity politics in European politics, the Turkish membership. So now I think we have to change this, we have to go back to pre-Sarkozy settings again. So, a merit-based membership path should be open, and then Türkiye should unite with Europe to create a more effective force in the region.

PRESENTER- Very concretely, there is a possibility of the high-level political dialogue, which has been suspended for five years, to be restarted in the near future? Just to give maybe some encouragement to what you're calling for or is it too early?

FOREIGN MINISTER HAKAN FİDAN- Well, during the visit of President von der Leyen our impression that, you know, she would like to have such a possibility. And President Erdoğan is certainly very much willing to advance on that direction.

PRESENTER- Hakan Fidan, Foreign Minister of the Republic of Türkiye, thank you very much for welcoming us here in Ankara. And thank you all for watching this interview here on France 24. Thank you.